Comments on: We don’t need Flash on the iPad, we need better tools to build HTML5 sites http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/ Flex, AIR & the Flux of Flash Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:25:30 -0400 hourly 1 By: Dan http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-79 Dan Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:47:50 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-79 rmunix, to be fair JS libraries these days do a good job of abstracting browser idiosyncrasies away. When people talk about how JS has "matured" what they really mean is there are libraries to battle the mess, JS itself hasn't changed for ten years. Libraries aren't ideal if you're after high performance though. But still, yes... HTML devs spend a lot of time working around detail issues with layouts and CSS in various browsers. HTML development generally tends to be more expensive than Flash. rmunix, to be fair JS libraries these days do a good job of abstracting browser idiosyncrasies away. When people talk about how JS has “matured” what they really mean is there are libraries to battle the mess, JS itself hasn’t changed for ten years. Libraries aren’t ideal if you’re after high performance though.
But still, yes… HTML devs spend a lot of time working around detail issues with layouts and CSS in various browsers.
HTML development generally tends to be more expensive than Flash.

]]> By: rmunix http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-78 rmunix Fri, 09 Apr 2010 23:09:00 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-78 To all you HTML5 newbies, it is AJAX all over again. People said AJAX will kill flash and here we are not one of your posts talks about AJAX. The problem with HTML5 is vendor implementation. You end up having to debug your app for each an ever single browser and browser version. Been there done that. But you if newbies want to try it be my guest. I am sticking with Flash. To all you HTML5 newbies, it is AJAX all over again. People said AJAX will kill flash and here we are not one of your posts talks about AJAX. The problem with HTML5 is vendor implementation. You end up having to debug your app for each an ever single browser and browser version. Been there done that. But you if newbies want to try it be my guest. I am sticking with Flash.

]]> By: Michael http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-77 Michael Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:09:15 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-77 I found a fun piece of code for iPad. It is an example of how to swap a Flash SWF with an image if your user agent is an iPad. <a href="http://www.combsconsulting.com/ipad-replace-flash-with-image-java-script-example/" rel="nofollow">http://www.combsconsulting.com/ipad-replace-flash-with-image-java-script-example/</a> I found a fun piece of code for iPad. It is an example of how to swap a Flash SWF with an image if your user agent is an iPad.

http://www.combsconsulting.com/ipad-replace-flash-with-image-java-script-example/

]]> By: Dan http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-74 Dan Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:53:52 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-74 @Dorian I know what you mean and you may be right. Or not. I don't know. ;-) You're talking about the future now but that's speculation, none of us has a crystal ball. I merely wanted to point out that today Flash is a lot faster. Exept on Macs but that's old news. There's a lot of misinformation spread about this these days. I think us media pros have an obligation to cut through the hype and provide a balanced view. Both browsers and Flash will continue to improve, they're all under competition. We might well see one browser becoming really fast and maybe catch up with Flash, but what about the other browsers then? At least Flash currently means consistency for the largest possible audience. > (and maybe even MS) Quite nonchalant ;-) that's 50% of your audience. Totally agree that all technologies have pros and cons and you should pick the right tool for the job. But if you're after a rich experience today and recommend against Flash cause tomorrow browsers might catch up.. that seems adventurous. And the meaning of "everyday apps" is constantly shifting, today it's video, tomorrow it's HD video and so on. Cheers, Dan @Dorian
I know what you mean and you may be right. Or not. I don’t know. ;-)
You’re talking about the future now but that’s speculation, none of us has a crystal ball.

I merely wanted to point out that today Flash is a lot faster.
Exept on Macs but that’s old news.
There’s a lot of misinformation spread about this these days.

I think us media pros have an obligation to cut through the hype and provide a balanced view.

Both browsers and Flash will continue to improve, they’re all under competition. We might well see one browser becoming really fast and maybe catch up with Flash, but what about the other browsers then?
At least Flash currently means consistency for the largest possible audience.

> (and maybe even MS)

Quite nonchalant ;-) that’s 50% of your audience.

Totally agree that all technologies have pros and cons and you should pick the right tool for the job. But if you’re after a rich experience today and recommend against Flash cause tomorrow browsers might catch up.. that seems adventurous.
And the meaning of “everyday apps” is constantly shifting, today it’s video, tomorrow it’s HD video and so on.

Cheers, Dan

]]> By: Wim Duivendrecht http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-65 Wim Duivendrecht Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:11:20 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-65 Your remark that flash needs to many system resources is not entirely correct. For one thing: Mac OS X does not (yet) provide direct access to the video card/gpu, and that's why the flash player on the mac uses so much CPU. Flash player 10.1 promises to fix a lot of these mac os x cpu problems. But more importantly: a full-fledged application with many running processes and complex interactions cannot be compared to a static text-based web page. Of course the application will use more CPU! When HTML5 becomes more capable of building real applications, you will see the same increase in CPU usage. I even read somewhere that HTML5+javascript+CSS3 actually needs MORE cpu to accomplish the same functions as flash. Another problem with the increasing complexity of HTML5+Javascript+CSS3 is the wild variety of standards, and the lack of a real application development environment. As long as you're building static text pages this isn't a big problem, but when you build a complex app in html, the code really becomes quite inaccessible. Your remark that flash needs to many system resources is not entirely correct.

For one thing: Mac OS X does not (yet) provide direct access to the video card/gpu, and that’s why the flash player on the mac uses so much CPU. Flash player 10.1 promises to fix a lot of these mac os x cpu problems.

But more importantly: a full-fledged application with many running processes and complex interactions cannot be compared to a static text-based web page. Of course the application will use more CPU!

When HTML5 becomes more capable of building real applications, you will see the same increase in CPU usage. I even read somewhere that HTML5+javascript+CSS3 actually needs MORE cpu to accomplish the same functions as flash.

Another problem with the increasing complexity of HTML5+Javascript+CSS3 is the wild variety of standards, and the lack of a real application development environment.
As long as you’re building static text pages this isn’t a big problem, but when you build a complex app in html, the code really becomes quite inaccessible.

]]> By: Joseph Silverman http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-62 Joseph Silverman Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:46:39 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-62 There are TOO tools for doing the kinda of things you do in flash in dhtml. Check out http://www.openlaszlo.org/ . This includes animation, complex GUI interaction, etc.. Though we don't suggest you do so, my company's flagship producs, webtop, written in openlaszlo, works pretty well on the iphone - albeit SLOW and not particularly well optimized for use on that platform. There are TOO tools for doing the kinda of things you do in flash in dhtml. Check out http://www.openlaszlo.org/ . This includes animation, complex GUI interaction, etc.. Though we don’t suggest you do so, my company’s flagship producs, webtop, written in openlaszlo, works pretty well on the iphone – albeit SLOW and not particularly well optimized for use on that platform.

]]> By: a work on process » Weekend Links http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-44 a work on process » Weekend Links Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:40:58 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-44 [...] ongoing debate about flash. It’s good to see a number of voices (such as Jeffrey Zeldman and Dorian Ray) pointing out that Adobe are well positioned to build tools to help with HTML5 adoption. That would [...] [...] ongoing debate about flash. It’s good to see a number of voices (such as Jeffrey Zeldman and Dorian Ray) pointing out that Adobe are well positioned to build tools to help with HTML5 adoption. That would [...]

]]> By: SitePoint Podcast #47: Checkmate Apple http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-43 SitePoint Podcast #47: Checkmate Apple Fri, 05 Feb 2010 07:36:47 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-43 [...] We don’t need Flash on the iPad, we need better tools to build HTML5 sites (dasflash) [...] [...] We don’t need Flash on the iPad, we need better tools to build HTML5 sites (dasflash) [...]

]]> By: Dorian http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-42 Dorian Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:00:21 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-42 @Dan You're right, HTML5 sites can also burn your CPU and there will always be programmers who try to max out your CPU. And I think trying to push the limits is a good thing, too! I just believe that for most everyday web apps like video, charts etc. there will be a performance advantage with HTML5 pretty soon. One reason is that HTML/JavaScript doesn't run within a sandbox in the browser and the browser can manage the system resources needed by HTML apps far more efficiently (I just say web workers). Another reason is the strong competition between the browser manufacturers. It has led to absolutely amazing performance improvements since Google has started to build apps like Docs and Maps. I'm convinced that Apple, Google, Mozilla (and maybe even MS) won't stop to push the JavaScript performance before web apps are on par with their desktop counterparts. And I'm afraid that Flash will not benefit from this at all. @Dan
You’re right, HTML5 sites can also burn your CPU and there will always be programmers who try to max out your CPU. And I think trying to push the limits is a good thing, too!

I just believe that for most everyday web apps like video, charts etc. there will be a performance advantage with HTML5 pretty soon. One reason is that HTML/JavaScript doesn’t run within a sandbox in the browser and the browser can manage the system resources needed by HTML apps far more efficiently (I just say web workers). Another reason is the strong competition between the browser manufacturers. It has led to absolutely amazing performance improvements since Google has started to build apps like Docs and Maps. I’m convinced that Apple, Google, Mozilla (and maybe even MS) won’t stop to push the JavaScript performance before web apps are on par with their desktop counterparts.

And I’m afraid that Flash will not benefit from this at all.

]]> By: links for 2010-02-02 « innovations in higher education http://dasflash.com/2010/01/we-dont-need-flash-on-the-ipad-we-need-better-tools-to-build-html5-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-41 links for 2010-02-02 « innovations in higher education Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:09:15 +0000 http://dasflash.com/?p=150#comment-41 [...] We don’t need Flash on the iPad, we need better tools to build HTML5 sites (tags: web browsers standards javascript html5 flash adobe) Twitter Updates [...] [...] We don’t need Flash on the iPad, we need better tools to build HTML5 sites (tags: web browsers standards javascript html5 flash adobe) Twitter Updates [...]

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